# [Paul Krugman](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/) SubscribeSign in Playback speed 1× Subtitles Share post Share post at current time Share from 0:00 / Transcript SPEAKER 2 hey everybody from oh we have uh France and Maryland and Pennsylvania and Michigan two from France or maybe no you just misspelled it before the Berkshires which I bet are beautiful uh right now and uh while we wait for Facebook Dr Krugman hello and you know the the Berkshires yourself don't you indeed um not to give too much SPEAKER 1 away but we spend um Robin and I spend a fair part of each summer there when we can. And yeah, lots of stuff. My parents retired there. Anyway, great area. 1,277 80 139 ## Lunch Money with Paul Krugman and Heather Cox Richardson A recording from Paul Krugman and Heather Cox Richardson's live video [Paul Krugman](https://substack.com/@paulkrugman) and [Heather Cox Richardson](https://substack.com/@heathercoxrichardson) Jun 18, 2026 1,277 80 139 Transcript Thank you [Michael Scarmack](https://open.substack.com/users/29305883-michael-scarmack?utm_source=mentions), [Scotland Explained](https://open.substack.com/users/375810392-scotland-explained?utm_source=mentions), [Oakbridges.ca](https://open.substack.com/users/134432056-oakbridgesca?utm_source=mentions), [Kim G](https://open.substack.com/users/32893660-kim-g?utm_source=mentions), [Cathy Stein](https://open.substack.com/users/318670950-cathy-stein?utm_source=mentions), and many others for tuning into my live video with [Heather Cox Richardson](https://open.substack.com/users/4875576-heather-cox-richardson?utm_source=mentions)! Join me for my next live video in the app. Get more from Paul Krugman in the Substack app Available for iOS and Android [Get the app](https://substack.com/app/app-store-redirect?utm_campaign=app-marketing&utm_content=author-post-insert&utm_source=paulkrugman) 1,277 Likes∙ [139 Restacks](https://substack.com/note/p-202459938/restacks?utm_source=substack&utm_content=facepile-restacks) #### Discussion about this video CommentsRestacks [EcstaticRationalist](https://substack.com/profile/14060038-ecstaticrationalist?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [6d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/278400902 "Jun 18, 2026, 5:59 AM") Scary. Also pure gold. That these two intellects exist and are deeply involved and concerned with the future of the United States is in itself a reason to hope. Like (54) Reply (2) [Cass Bielski](https://substack.com/profile/25091605-cass-bielski?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [6d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/278716929 "Jun 18, 2026, 4:13 PM") What a treat to witness these two great minds analyzing the world and US situation in a digestible form. Like (12) Reply [Kim Riffel](https://substack.com/profile/109578087-kim-riffel?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [2d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/280818062 "Jun 22, 2026, 1:18 PM") You two click well together. Like Reply [Christine](https://substack.com/profile/2869692-christine?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [6d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/278399118 "Jun 18, 2026, 5:52 AM") So, so look forward to your conversations. Thank you for your service to our national sanity. 🙏 Like (30) Reply [Abandoned Afghan Ally](https://substack.com/profile/385685446-abandoned-afghan-ally?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [6d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/278388629 "Jun 18, 2026, 5:14 AM") This discussion is very interesting, As an Afghan veteran I feel many times voices like ours are not heard. Good to see serious talk about economy and politics. Like (25) Reply [Old Man with a Dog](https://substack.com/profile/61384184-old-man-with-a-dog?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [6d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/278555700 "Jun 18, 2026, 11:24 AM") It has become rather obvious that the United States needs to remove/replace the Citizens United ruling, and stop our billionaires from simply buying politicians and entire political parties. I’ve been very surprised and disappointed at the ease money can corrupt, not just politicians, but the general public. I would be a supporter of our next president rewriting and implementing a new Fairness Doctrine. Like (14) Reply [Christy Shaver](https://substack.com/profile/272537806-christy-shaver?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [6d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/278515937 "Jun 18, 2026, 10:16 AM") What stayed with me from this conversation was the reminder that societies are held together by more than economics. The discussion focused on wealth, corruption, and political power, but I found myself thinking about trust. When people lose faith that institutions are serving the public good, something deeper begins to fray. Yet history also suggests that renewal is possible when ordinary people remain engaged and committed to one another. Perhaps resilience begins there—not in markets or governments alone, but in our willingness to care for our communities, participate in civic life, and remember that democracy is ultimately a shared responsibility. Thank you for the conversation. Like (13) Reply [Charles Denton](https://substack.com/profile/75702583-charles-denton?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [6d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/278475925 "Jun 18, 2026, 9:04 AM") Edited Bravo for calling Crypto for what it is: a way to launder money and bilk investors. Like (11) Reply [Declan](https://substack.com/profile/14131763-declan?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [6d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/278392340 "Jun 18, 2026, 5:28 AM") I have a very high regard for Drs. Richardson and Krugman. But I have to wonder how relevant American history is to our current situation. It seems to me that the rupture with the American past is now so profound that history and the ideals of the Founders are largely irrelevant. So what do I read to understand where America is going? Don't laugh. I read science fiction. Really. Like (10) Reply (1) [sean malee](https://substack.com/profile/36494117-sean-malee?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [6d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/278654262 "Jun 18, 2026, 2:15 PM") Sci fi fan as well. It amazes me how sentient the science fiction writers were 50 or more years ago. I just finished Brave New World after 30 years and found it more relevant than my first lap. I feel the same way about history. The solutions to our current situation are different, but the history informs and inspires us. Like (4) Reply [Michael N.](https://substack.com/profile/92496458-michael-n?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [6d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/278482827 "Jun 18, 2026, 9:17 AM") Incredible, real, unscripted and very educational, thank you both for putting this out!! Like (9) Reply [Diana Cammack](https://substack.com/profile/2331116-diana-cammack?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [6d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/278501701 "Jun 18, 2026, 9:51 AM") What worries me is that there may be another economic crisis, say like 2008, and you have Trump and his band of merry advisors in power to solve it rather than some people who know what they are doing. They could really mess up the situation big time! Like (8) Reply (2) [Winston Smith London Oceania](https://substack.com/profile/308852488-winston-smith-london-oceania?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [6d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/278509358 "Jun 18, 2026, 10:04 AM") They won't solve it. They're the cause of it. Like (8) Reply [Carol Kusel](https://substack.com/profile/251769113-carol-kusel?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [3d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/280261231 "Jun 21, 2026, 1:20 PM") The next crisis is here and now due to 3 more trillion dollars of debt since last year . Hang on. Like (1) Reply [Luke Silburn](https://substack.com/profile/109855802-luke-silburn?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [6d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/278458616 "Jun 18, 2026, 8:30 AM") I agree that we need to worry about anational or transnational elites thinking they've moved beyond the limits of the national 'political game' (if you will); not because I think that they have actually achieved that transcendence (I don't), but because of the splash damage we are all going to take when these shallow fools run into the hard limits of trust, accountability and the principal/agent problem that means they wreck the world economy. They have been shielded from these harder truths by the international postwar politico-economic settlement that was underwritten by the pax Americana; but not to worry - they have been busily undermining that in the last few years, so we will all get to enjoy the fruits of a world where if you want to run a business 'out west' (for whatever west means in any given context) then it's recommended that you have a close relative on site to make sure that the money stays good. Like (6) Reply [Linda Roberta Hibbs](https://substack.com/profile/152748155-linda-roberta-hibbs?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [6d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/278401363 "Jun 18, 2026, 6:00 AM") This was a very interesting conversation. I recommend watching Teddy Roosevelt documentary on Netflix done by Doris Kearns Goodwin. It seems during Roosevelt Presidency our economy was booming. Like (6) Reply [Kerry](https://substack.com/profile/44191387-kerry?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [6d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/278493268 "Jun 18, 2026, 9:36 AM") The big difference is the loss of values. The Robber Barons at least gave a shit about society. Either that or they knew they needed to appear to care. Like (5) Reply [Kevin C. Smith MD FRCPC](https://substack.com/profile/4619781-kevin-c-smith-md-frcpc?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [6d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/278451014 "Jun 18, 2026, 8:15 AM") Krugman's vocal audio is murky this morning, I'm having to struggle a bit to understand. Might be better with a proper mic rather than earphones. Like (5) Reply (2) [Karen](https://substack.com/profile/3960080-karen?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [6d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/278457053 "Jun 18, 2026, 8:27 AM") Thank you. It wasn’t just me! Like (2) Reply [S. Carolyn Darity](https://substack.com/profile/44004169-s-carolyn-darity?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [5d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/279191245 "Jun 19, 2026, 12:44 PM") I found his audio just fine this time. Like Reply [Beth](https://substack.com/profile/9146926-beth?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [6d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/278522461 "Jun 18, 2026, 10:27 AM") Trump’s drain the swamp mantra is perfectly captured in the out of control algae growth in the reflecting pool. Like (4) Reply [Marc Panaye](https://substack.com/profile/249465424-marc-panaye?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [6d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/278538659 "Jun 18, 2026, 10:55 AM") If one looks at the level of corruption of today compared with history..... the amount of corruption is staggering. Never ever before has a person, who is supposed to be a leader of a country, run away with the kind of money trump is running away with. Now if you add all the peripheral corruption I cannot even begin to imagine the mountain of money. Like (3) Reply [Winston Smith London Oceania](https://substack.com/profile/308852488-winston-smith-london-oceania?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [6d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/278507302 "Jun 18, 2026, 10:01 AM") Corruption is back and bigger than ever. Like (3) Reply [Aemalh27@gmail.com](https://substack.com/profile/242429494-aemalh27gmailcom?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [6d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/278436291 "Jun 18, 2026, 7:41 AM") Edited Well I am sure you are right about the childish bully mentality. That is what this particular regime has been employing expertly from the get-go, what all of the organizations in history that operate to take over by lying and covering up use. I see many angles and implications in society as explanation of Why it is “tolerated.” But, the one that really burns me up is the ignorance. Not only of Recognizing it for what it is, but in the implication of far, far inferior education AND rock bottom expectations (falling for many decades now) in public education (Whole other Subject to tear apart - yet simple solution incredibly difficult to implement.) “Regular” people have not been exposed to deeper truths of our/human history to look deeper than words they hear, and if you are not expected to have vocabulary or literacy skills beyond second grade…. Like (3) Reply [cig (TX)](https://substack.com/profile/12024358-cig-tx?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [6d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/278435039 "Jun 18, 2026, 7:38 AM") Great discussion! Re: Teapot Dome. Today, with so many Republican Congress members bowing to Trump, what can we do? Vote, of course. But what else? All my representatives are R. Like (3) Reply (1) [S. Carolyn Darity](https://substack.com/profile/44004169-s-carolyn-darity?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [5d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/279194022 "Jun 19, 2026, 12:49 PM") NC here. All my representatives are Rs too. Tillis is leaving and found his spine. Hopefully he will be replaced by our previous D governor, Cooper. The entire state went R in 2010 as a backlash to Obama and has lost ground on many fronts. Here’s to a blue wave! Like (1) Reply [Sabrina Leigh](https://substack.com/profile/105000197-sabrina-leigh?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [6d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/278618154 "Jun 18, 2026, 1:11 PM") I have a question for you for the next Politics Chat and not sure I’ll make it in time to watch the beginning. It seems to me that while a lot of us have been focusing on Putin, that trump is more likely following Erdogan. trump seems a few paces behind him in what he is doing. Erdogan has purged military, universities, and courts. He has imprisoned Imamoglu and going after Ozel right now. Erdogan has almost made a full sweep of his dictatorship with Ozel being the last to go in the dustpan. I feel like he is never spoken about and that this cabal keeps waving false flags of Putin and Bibi while trump and company keep the Turkish flag under the table. I believe they’re all in on this and have been for decades so this was the plan. What are your thoughts and nuggets on this situation? Thank you Heather. Like (2) Reply [Bee's Free Verse/True Verse](https://substack.com/profile/208290729-bees-free-versetrue-verse?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [6d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/278605060 "Jun 18, 2026, 12:48 PM") I appreciate your discussions so much, Dr. Richardson. They help me better understand our history and see the patterns. They give me hope in seeing how societal upheaval seems to be necessary before forward movement can occur. Like (2) Reply [Jan Colton](https://substack.com/profile/301886967-jan-colton?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [6d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/278604644 "Jun 18, 2026, 12:47 PM") Excellent! More please! Like (2) Reply [William Pigman](https://substack.com/profile/24558775-william-pigman?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [6d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/278555435 "Jun 18, 2026, 11:24 AM") The two intellectuals are smart but impotent , when they are up against deeply corrupt , millionaire U.S Congress, an executive branch not elected by popular vote, and a life term Supreme Court bent on weakening one man , one vote rule. While we the peasants chant 'greatest country in the world" , we are finally starting to understand that a middle east suprematist theocracy of 10 million people , operating with allies holding power within the U.S., determines most of our foreign commitment.. Nearly every crucial act by our federal goverment is based on PAC's , especially AIPAC, money flows to our elected officials . What could go wrong ? Now you know, and it may be too late to act . Like (2) Reply [Chenda](https://substack.com/profile/155968721-chenda?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [6d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/278468981 "Jun 18, 2026, 8:51 AM") Edited It's interesting to reflect how right wing conservatives have long claimed the west has been in a state of moral decline, usually by fixating on issues abortion and homosexuality. But perhaps they are right for the wrong reasons. Neoliberal greed-is-good capitalism of the last 40 years has led to a world where oligarchs can and do openly brag about their corruption and decadence. Musk can gloat about destroying US aid, which has led to the deaths of 1000s of children. Carnegie may have been no less corrupt and greedy as Musk but he still felt the need to show he was a decent man, whatever the reality was. Are we reverting to an ancient strong will dominate the weak world? Tom Holland, in his book Dominion, argues that concepts such as universal human rights and concern for the weak and suffering are deeply rooted in the Christian inheritance of the west. Which leads to ask whether modern secular values are sustainable without the religious underpinnings. Like (2) Reply (1) [paul](https://substack.com/profile/57909777-paul?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [6d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/278574104 "Jun 18, 2026, 11:55 AM") But then again, I would like to know what kind of real affect the church has on society, anymore. Not much, as far as I can see. The so-called "religious right" seem to be all in for the Orange Devil. Like (3) Reply (1) [Chenda](https://substack.com/profile/155968721-chenda?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [6d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/278674003 "Jun 18, 2026, 2:51 PM") I agree, Holland's argument is historical not apologetic. Interestingly the US is rapidly becoming more secular, moving towards converging with other western nations. So it's possible the Christian Right will essentially die off soon enough. Like Reply [ynotsabraw](https://substack.com/profile/360124013-ynotsabraw?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [6d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/278450046 "Jun 18, 2026, 8:13 AM") Canadian watching from the north and fascinated by your conversation. Would love to know how popular media was controlled in previous eras. The number of Fox viewers who know nothing of the incredible enrichment of the Trump family since Nov 2024 makes me think that a popular uprising against corruption is not so likely. Like (2) Reply [Susan Borden](https://substack.com/profile/7482935-susan-borden?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [6d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/278414394 "Jun 18, 2026, 6:42 AM") It is disheartening that we fail to understand what the Clinton administration’s earnest and successful effort to move the government from deficit to surplus did to households and businesses. Necessarily, the private sector went from a surplus of about 6% of GDP IN 1993 to a deficit of about 6% in 2000. This is the consequence of an immutable accounting identity. Ask Paul K if the sum of the surpluses or deficits of (a) the government, (b) the private sector, and (c) the foreign sector ALWAYS equals zero. (It does.) That means, in the U.S., which imports more than it exports, for the private sector to run a surplus (which most of us would always prefer), the government must run a deficit. In the seven or so times in U.S. history that the government has run a surplus, a recession or depression has ensued. We should also discuss what government debt actually is. Taxes do not fund government spending if the government is the sole issuer of the currency. Like (2) Reply (1) [Jim Brady](https://substack.com/profile/317364635-jim-brady?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [6d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/278429194 "Jun 18, 2026, 7:23 AM") Edited It is a little more complicated than that. Because in economics, everything impacts everything else. The government deficit potentially affects inflation which potentially results in the Central Bank changing the interest rate which affects the exchange rate and income effects can then affect the foreign sector. But yes the US government should be running a deficit (it does), but then monetary policy should be tighter and progressive taxes are needed to combat inequality. Like (3) Reply (1) [Susan Borden](https://substack.com/profile/7482935-susan-borden?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [6d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/278432195 "Jun 18, 2026, 7:31 AM") I entirely agree Jim. I don’t think it is possible to sustain democracies with this level of income and wealth inequality and taxing the rich is one element of righting the ship. At the same time, what a consequential service it would be to have HCR and PK explain the rudiments of the monetary system so that we could go on to bring more penetrating analysis (e.g., Isabella Weber) and more effective remedies to the inflation challenge specifically and the stability challenge more generally. Like (3) Reply [Gloria J. Maloney](https://substack.com/profile/4686791-gloria-j-maloney?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [6d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/278405982 "Jun 18, 2026, 6:16 AM") I watched this converstion yesterday and appreciate the insights into our present economic and political situation that can be found by looking back at our history. Thank you both. Like (2) Reply [Chris Wills](https://substack.com/profile/19835159-chris-wills?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [5d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/279074273 "Jun 19, 2026, 9:23 AM") Edited Dixie - Mason-Dixon line? Probably form the dix, French for ten, on the bank note. Like (1) Reply [kathleen mccann](https://substack.com/profile/316887212-kathleen-mccann?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [5d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/279055048 "Jun 19, 2026, 8:45 AM") Even bankers know banks should be regulated …what’s concerning are the A national unregulated concentrations of immense wealth and power… we are watching Donald trump all but bankrupting the country the way he bankrupted his businesses…it seems the only solution is raising taxes on the super rich …many of whom are supporting trump and his enablers to avoid paying their fair share…I think the extreme corruption and cage wrestling model of government is beyond what even maga can tolerate beyond kitchen table issues ….so now the gerrymandering is the big obstacle Like (1) Reply [Mo Khan](https://substack.com/profile/38532029-mo-khan?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [5d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/278925886 "Jun 19, 2026, 1:40 AM") I believe Warren and AOC are more than willing to do a wealth tax. Warren was the first person I’ve ever seen who I think got it right by putting the Welp tax on the 0.1% for those with the worth of over $50 million have made all of the money and army money and hiding it. That well tax I believe Henry made larger only start in the 0.1% but instead of two or three cents on the dollar if you are billing in the air up to five cents or more on the dollar and start to actually bring billionaire net worth down no longer exist exist. I believe that type of correction can help with our debt and get universal healthcare started and make Social Security solvent in addition to other measures such as in increasing capital gains tax for the 0.1% and taking away the big bad bill tax cut. Like (1) Reply [The Observer](https://substack.com/profile/475076-the-observer?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [6d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/278756946 "Jun 18, 2026, 5:33 PM") How lucky we are to listen in on two great scholars swap stories, ideas, insights! Thank You So Much!!! Like (1) Reply [June Taylor](https://substack.com/profile/48412507-june-taylor?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [6d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/278743693 "Jun 18, 2026, 5:05 PM") Wow! I hope there’s a transcript published soon, Prof.Krugman! Like (1) Reply [June Taylor](https://substack.com/profile/48412507-june-taylor?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [6d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/278740161 "Jun 18, 2026, 4:58 PM") Thank you for this - I learned so much. Like (1) Reply [stuart burstin](https://substack.com/profile/114636906-stuart-burstin?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [6d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/278739388 "Jun 18, 2026, 4:56 PM") Thank you for the excellent discussion. I believe the idea of virtue in governance, as well as life, does serve as a baseline for formation of a government (as our founders knew). Trump clearly sees all rules as barriers to overcome not guardrails needed for a society that affords freedom to, as well as freedom from, for successful harmonious function. Virtue helped society behind the curtain and, as you suggest, appears to be evaporating into the ether of greed. I had occasion to get to know a former partner of Lehman Brothers from a time when the Brothers still controlled the company, who was responsible for their energy portfolio. He was in Europe when he received a telegram that the Brothers were considering a deal with Armand Hammer. He responded that the deal was economically sound and would result in profits, but if they accepted he would resign. They did not make the deal. Greed had not yet trumped virtue. I believe we must help draw back the curtain of corruption, but need to overcome the perception that all government and politicians are created equally corrupt and self-dealing. We are no longer a country of Mr. Smith Goes to Washington, Donna Reed or Father Knows Best. Instead, political and media figures backed by their funders manipulate the system with fear and tribalism. How to return to a path of empathy, comradery and trust is beyond my expertise, but I suggest a common adversary may be helpful. However, space invaders (the regime has even corrupted the word alien) may not be the best adversary. Instead, we have the very real one of climate catastrophe, which just happens to be brought to us by the same Masters of War and Power who are driving the Trump corruption machine. Like (1) Reply [dark&stormynight](https://substack.com/profile/84777199-dark-and-stormynight?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [6d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/278726773 "Jun 18, 2026, 4:32 PM") Paul, your audios sound like you are in a barrel. Heather's audio is ok. Like (1) Reply [Mary Ann Simmons](https://substack.com/profile/154705437-mary-ann-simmons?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [6d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/278704358 "Jun 18, 2026, 3:49 PM") I’m Team Heather in my anxiety about the country bleeding tax money. Your Medicare dollars are about to flow to Iran?! Our tax rates on corporations and the super wealthy are not sustainable, are “not in line with other advanced nations” as Krugman says, and the reckoning of the graft and the free ride for the richest has an end point. It’s 1929 to the 10th power. Like (1) Reply [Sylvia Partridge](https://substack.com/profile/10171306-sylvia-partridge?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [6d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/278698814 "Jun 18, 2026, 3:39 PM") Raising taxes on the rich seems like a good possibility with a democratic majority. Like (1) Reply [Mette Smith](https://substack.com/profile/270296338-mette-smith?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [6d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/278687535 "Jun 18, 2026, 3:18 PM") Thank you both. What is happening to our country today is so beyond understanding. Your comments and conversations are a huge help. I have friends who voted for Trump and I'm sure you do too. If they regret it, what are they saying? What is their recommendation for turning our country back into the light? It's going to take years to regain what we have lost in a few days. Like (1) Reply [Jessie Lendennie](https://substack.com/profile/3106571-jessie-lendennie?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [6d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/278659455 "Jun 18, 2026, 2:25 PM") Love from County Clare, Ireland!!!💐💐 Like (1) Reply [Jim Lynch](https://substack.com/profile/229153466-jim-lynch?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [6d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/278467243 "Jun 18, 2026, 8:47 AM") Edited One problem I have with putting the Gilded Age in second position to current wealth distribution is Cornelius Vanderbilt. At his height CV had one dollar of every nine in the American economy in his bank accounts. At least that's my understanding. Currently not even Musk come close to that kind of wealth. So my only solace in all of this current grotesquery is that we've been here before. I think. So. Am I wrong? Like (1) Reply (1) [Chenda](https://substack.com/profile/155968721-chenda?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [6d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/278476701 "Jun 18, 2026, 9:06 AM") I don't know but the historic value of money is a fascinating subject. Although I always remember Vanderbilt et al lived in a world without anesthesia or antibiotics, so from a certain perspective someone on minimum wage today is wealthier than the oligarcs of old. Like Reply [Lou Cook](https://substack.com/profile/14157622-lou-cook?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [3d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/280426379 "Jun 21, 2026, 7:28 PM") Transcript? Like Reply [Carol Kusel](https://substack.com/profile/251769113-carol-kusel?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [3d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/280257615 "Jun 21, 2026, 1:13 PM") delaware Like Reply [Mari Wilson](https://substack.com/profile/170033083-mari-wilson?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [3d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/280208376 "Jun 21, 2026, 11:34 AM") Trump lives & breathes on two ideologies: Roy Cohn and Hitler. He has been hugely influenced by them. And he is running off both of their manuals play by play. The former, for as long as he knew him. The latter, actively in the last 5 years. Trump has bankrupted every business he’s run. He is going to bankrupt our country. Exactly right, look at the grotesque spending of our tax dollars on b.s., that then costs more to repair. Along with the endless graft. Until tens of millions of people experience THAT, only then will there be a civil uprising. Civil War, if enough of the military leaders and members realize they are victims as well. Like Reply [Puzzled in Montana](https://substack.com/profile/182159932-puzzled-in-montana?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [4d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/279932645 "Jun 20, 2026, 8:34 PM") The topic of values is interesting, but gaming the system has come to be ever more acceptable on a number of fronts. Sports is an example, not an analogy, for this. Commentators routinely describe something as a "good foul", meaning the likely gain is more than the penalty. They even discuss the brilliance of a player for being able to commit rule violations in a way that referees can't see. In business schools, a disturbingly high percentage of courses amount to techniques for gaming the system, whether avoiding taxes, manipulating employees and customers (separately, of course), or "regulatory arbitrage". Like Reply [Meighan Corbett](https://substack.com/profile/110973789-meighan-corbett?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [4d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/279877822 "Jun 20, 2026, 6:01 PM") People kept falling for the trickle down theory from 1980 on. And it’s a lie. Like Reply [Puzzled in Montana](https://substack.com/profile/182159932-puzzled-in-montana?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [4d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/279873116 "Jun 20, 2026, 5:50 PM") It's easy to overlook the breadth of the Overton Window of +/- 1900. The 2nd or 3rd best-selling American book of the time was Bellamy's "Looking Backward: 2000-1887". (The other two in the top three were Ben-Hur and Uncle Tom's Cabin.) Looking Backward describes a radically egalitarian market-based society for the US, and inspired Bellamy Clubs all over the US. And, there were actual Socialists elected, especially in the midwest. The right-wingers have managed to get that pretty much ignored in US history. In that context, though, the reformist Republicans can be seen as mainstream. The trusts used WW I as an excuse for the Espionage Act of 1917 and the Sedition Act of 1918, which were really about busting unions. Like Reply [Kirsten L. Held](https://substack.com/profile/6451284-kirsten-l-held?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [4d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/279805466 "Jun 20, 2026, 3:15 PM") That was fantastic! What a wonderful conversation. Like Reply [Teresa JV](https://substack.com/profile/5804460-teresa-jv?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [4d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/279691059 "Jun 20, 2026, 11:24 AM") Great conversation! Thank you! Like Reply [read2much](https://substack.com/profile/10882623-read2much?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [5d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/279439456 "Jun 19, 2026, 9:50 PM") This reminds me of the story of the 1874 Freedmens bank and the mismanagement, corruption and then the closing of the bank and the loss of millions of black citizens money. Is this a tangentially related experience? Like Reply [Kim Sosin](https://substack.com/profile/10192291-kim-sosin?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [5d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/279432984 "Jun 19, 2026, 9:32 PM") Please keep doing these! Both brilliant and sensible, so appreciated! Like Reply [Quenby Morrow](https://substack.com/profile/28415406-quenby-morrow?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [5d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/279262338 "Jun 19, 2026, 2:57 PM") Mind blowing. When the crash arrives and it’s inevitable, it’s going to be insane Like Reply [S. Carolyn Darity](https://substack.com/profile/44004169-s-carolyn-darity?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [5d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/279188801 "Jun 19, 2026, 12:40 PM") Amazingly good information from the two of you. I’m so concerned about our country. Your focus of present day politics in view of past history along with the brilliance of Krugman’s knowledge of economics brought out something special. Americans need this information wide spread before it’s too late to recover. Yes, the tax payer coffers flowing out like water because of this administration’s hubris seems to have an intent. Our nation is being destroyed by the billionaire class who have no allegiance to the USA given their ability to live anywhere. Like Reply [JT](https://substack.com/profile/224856600-jt?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [5d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/278936645 "Jun 19, 2026, 2:24 AM") It all comes down to the people: opposition, pitchforks. I have a pitchfork and I'm willing to bring it Like Reply [William Coulter](https://substack.com/profile/322445983-william-coulter?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [6d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/278815681 "Jun 18, 2026, 7:49 PM") Um… Dan Emmett wrote “Dixie”, not Stephen Foster. There are a lot of songs written by Foster and the few that I’m familiar with do not mention Dixie. FWIW I did an Ai query and it found no Foster songs with the word ‘Dixie’ in the lyrics. Foster did write songs for minstrel shows, but he seems to have been somewhat more clear-eyed about the realities of slavery. In My Old Kentucky Home a white voice sings “tis summer the darkies are gay” but a black voice sings “by and by hard times come a-knockn’ at my door, then my old Kentucky home good night”. Usually minstrel songs are full of happy slaves with nary a hint of hardship. In any event, Cox just moved the question. Where did Dan Emmett get the word “Dixie”? The only alternative to the bank note theory I’ve heard is that ‘Dixie’ was the name of an enslaved black person. Like Reply [Henry Cunha](https://substack.com/profile/74008624-henry-cunha?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [6d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/278713400 "Jun 18, 2026, 4:06 PM") They complement each other professionally very well. History and economics aren't really natural bedfellows, despite what people think. Economics is full of theory and models in a way that history is not. All the same, I would have liked a discussion of the aftermath of the tariffs, the balance of payments, re-industrialization (if it happened), and the cost of the debt more in relation to interest rate trending higher, and how that squeezes other spending. Like Reply [K Erickson](https://substack.com/profile/6218611-k-erickson?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [6d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/278704873 "Jun 18, 2026, 3:50 PM") Tariffs supplies money to government Like Reply [Bren](https://substack.com/profile/5856998-bren?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [6d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/278653286 "Jun 18, 2026, 2:13 PM") wonderful conversation! Like Reply [Latenightscientist](https://substack.com/profile/103547969-latenightscientist?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [6d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/278611257 "Jun 18, 2026, 12:58 PM") Paul, you should find out what AV equipment Heather is using and buy it. Her audio is much clearer. Like Reply [PipandJoe](https://substack.com/profile/306581051-pipandjoe?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [6d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/278582320 "Jun 18, 2026, 12:09 PM") Edited Big fun, thanks. My favorite topics of history and economics thrown out there like Legos on the floor so we can all see what parts are available and can be used to build a better future going forward. A puzzle and a mystery to be solved - we just need to find a way to assemble the solution into something workable - also my favorite thing. It is like the thrill of digging though my miscellaneous used hardware bin and realizing I might actually have the parts that I need. I could listen all day as you guys sort out the nuts and bolts. Like Reply [paulc](https://substack.com/profile/107771087-paulc?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [6d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/278579673 "Jun 18, 2026, 12:05 PM") Transcript? Please Like Reply [PodcastPhD](https://substack.com/profile/20822157-podcastphd?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [6d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/278535522 "Jun 18, 2026, 10:50 AM") This is fantastic Like Reply [Beryl](https://substack.com/profile/178403483-beryl?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [6d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/278444723 "Jun 18, 2026, 8:01 AM") What a good but scary discussion. Thank you to both of you. Like Reply [Janey](https://substack.com/profile/14940588-janey?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [6d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/278390390 "Jun 18, 2026, 5:20 AM") Janey in New Zealand Like Reply [Linda Roberta Hibbs](https://substack.com/profile/152748155-linda-roberta-hibbs?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [6d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/278390212 "Jun 18, 2026, 5:20 AM") 👋 Like Reply Comment removed [6d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/278388181 "Jun 18, 2026, 5:12 AM") Like (1) Reply (1) [James akers](https://substack.com/profile/1686244-james-akers?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [6d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/278402073 "Jun 18, 2026, 6:03 AM") Paul, ignore this troll Like (14) Reply (1) [Luke Silburn](https://substack.com/profile/109855802-luke-silburn?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [6d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/278450116 "Jun 18, 2026, 8:13 AM") Is it even a troll? The sentences are mostly grammatically correct but I can't make out a consistent thread of meaning in the comment. Like (5) Reply (1) [Mari Wilson](https://substack.com/profile/170033083-mari-wilson?utm_source=substack-feed-item) [3d](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/lunch-money-with-paul-krugman-and-f52/comment/280208821 "Jun 21, 2026, 11:35 AM") Was a bot perhaps? Like Reply Paul Krugman Podcast Notes on economics and more Notes on economics and more Subscribe Listen on Substack App Apple Podcasts Spotify YouTube RSS Feed Appears in episode [Paul Krugman](https://substack.com/@paulkrugman) [Heather Cox Richardson](https://substack.com/@heathercoxrichardson) Recent Episodes [The Chips Are Down](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/the-chips-are-down) 5 hrs ago•[Paul Krugman](https://substack.com/@paulkrugman) [Arindrajit Dube on Wages](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/arindrajit-dube-on-wages) Jun 20•[Paul Krugman](https://substack.com/@paulkrugman) [Power and Geopolitics After Trump](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/power-and-geopolitics-after-trump) Jun 18•[Paul Krugman](https://substack.com/@paulkrugman) [Talking With Azeem Azhar](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/talking-with-azeem-azhar) Jun 13•[Paul Krugman](https://substack.com/@paulkrugman) [A Gesture of Contempt](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/a-gesture-of-contempt) Jun 8•[Paul Krugman](https://substack.com/@paulkrugman) [Comments on a Freaky Friday](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/comments-on-a-freaky-friday) Jun 6•[Paul Krugman](https://substack.com/@paulkrugman) [Learning from a Mentally Ill President](https://paulkrugman.substack.com/p/learning-from-a-mentally-ill-president) May 31•[Paul Krugman](https://substack.com/@paulkrugman) ### Ready for more? Subscribe SPEAKER 1 away but we spend um Robin and I spend a fair part of each summer there when we can. And yeah, lots of stuff. My parents retired there. Anyway, great area.